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Thursday, September 12th 2019, 7:47am

¡Queremos matar a Sefeia!
¡Queremos matar a Sefeia!
s16 Esta lleno de actividad jugadores fuertes jugadores viejos y jugadores nuevos esta completamente injustificada la fusion la competencia en s16 es muy dificil como esta ademas si solo van a derrotar a Sefeia no tienen oportunidad asi que es inutil
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Thursday, September 12th 2019, 8:20am

Server 17 need to merge,because arena lack of competition. i know how gunny feels, cus im experience it.
most old players quit and some doenst care about pvp anymore.
right now server 17 like paradise for booster and cheater. with no GM in this game, ppl can do as they like without care.
as you can see top 3 rank in 2v2 s17 own by one person.
we can see S16 as exemple for good arena, full of activity.

so i dont get the reason why we shouldnt get merge.
If we take what you're saying at face value and appeal to the devs based on it, there is even less reason to merge S17 with anyone at all.
S17, by your description, is effectively a containment server for cheaters and boosters - but you go on to describe that S16 is without any problems. So why should the playerbase of S16 have to suffer just because S17 is problematic? You assert that there's no moderation for the server anymore, this doesn't imply that the situation will get any better if S16/S17 are merged, it just implies that S16 will have to deal with all of the problematic individuals in S17.

Several days after this topic was made, a similar topic was created on the active community over on the French forums. This actually received a reply from the mod staff, and they brought up three different issues regarding the merge. Two of these were technical, one being an internal database difference with regards to the servers, another being the operating language. The last one was a business statement which effectively went along the lines of "All merges eventually leads to a reduction in the playerbase in the long run".

Now, we can claim that the first point is "irrelevant". Since we don't actually know the code base they're operating off of and it's assumed that the differences in database are primarily due to language differences (basically we assume that the overall structure and foundation is the same). Sure, we know that the code itself has issues (Flash vulnerabilities aside), but the merge that the community is requesting wouldn't have helped those issues anyways.

We can also brush off the language issue. Most of us here would be fine with a server that operates strictly in French or German. Let's not try to argue futilely that English is the dominant language or whatever - we should admit to the fact that the English community pales in comparison to the German and French communities, by merit of playerbase alone those languages should take precedent over English. So that's not an issue.

But the community has no real rebuttal against the point related to eventual population decrease, and while we could argue "If they don't agree to our conditions, we'll leave!", that's not a strong argument, because all it really says is that unless the staff is willing to bend over backwards to suit the community's whims, we'll threaten to leave at any given time. Let's assume that this isn't an empty threat (but if we were to be honest, it probably is, given how addicted to this game many people are), what it does say is that the S17 community is volatile in comparison to other servers, and probably shouldn't be counted on as a stable population.

The problem is that if S16 and S17 are the way you describe them to be, then what the mod staff claims with regards to long term population fall off is actually reasonable - because the merge would force S16 to sacrifice for the sake of S17, and a backlash would be inevitable - if S16 is "full of activity" by your metric, taking S17's population and dumping them into S16 is only going to make S16 worse. Again, to go off of your claims, S17 is basically a migrant problem waiting to happen, and a merge would be the migration that hinders whichever server the S17 population is dumped into.



One thing that has become apparent through this thread is that the S17 community doesn't really have any consensus other than "Specific player groups are frustrated that they don't get the PvP matches they want, therefore they need another server to bail them out". We've had no less than three anecdotes about the server's operation - one says that there is no PvP activity with people actively avoiding each other. Another says that there is an active PvP community within the low level ranges. Then we have another anecdote that says the majority of people engaged in PvP are abusing the system and getting away with it. The common factor here, unsurprisingly, isn't the staff, but rather the community on S17.

It should not be hard to look at this objectively and see why no one would want to take on the burden of S17. A merge does nothing for the other server (S16) except guarantee that they're going to get an influx of rules abusers, and if S16 is operating well enough, why would they agree to ruin their own haven just to satisfy the needs of another server? Do we expect them to be selfless samaritans for some reason, or are we trying to assert that S17 is more important than other servers, despite being more corrupt and volatile? The only thing that S17 has to offer are people, and now we're effectively confirming that the people of S17 are the core problem of S17.

The more these anecdotes about S17 come out, the more it appears that people asking for a merge are going to have to convince the target server (be it S16 or otherwise) why they should have to put up with S17 in the first place, and we haven't even gotten into the logistics of the merge with regards to organization, execution, and compensation yet.
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  • "Schlachtenhorn" is male

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Thursday, September 12th 2019, 9:47am

"Now, we can claim that the first point is "irrelevant". Since we don't actually know the code base they're operating off of and it's assumed that the differences in database are primarily due to language differences"

Drop that here:

In Memoria Eteria Olim

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Saber

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Friday, September 13th 2019, 12:10am

Ars, are you perhaps a novelist ? you're really like type much huh ?
you should be happy cus i read half of it ... jk hahaha

first let me make clarification, when i say all server mean all server from english server S1-S17.
when we talking about booster,im sure every server have it, not only server 17, server 16 not exception.
look at their 2v2 rank, some rank not match with their player profiles.
i never say S17 full of booster, its just some person with many alts. who know how many.., i not gonna count it.
they can boost all the day cus circumstance very good for it. S17 lack of active players.
so when we get merge, its more harder for them to boost.

i dont get it when you say S16 as sacrifice for S17, S16 older than S17, ofc their player base stronger too. we never get gsd with full 32 teams. so i think this merge will give us more fun gsd. so its win-win situation.

i dont agree when you say S17 community are corrupt and volatile. are you sure the booster/cheater not come from other server and migrate to S17 cus its more easy to boosting ? :)

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Friday, September 13th 2019, 1:33am

Ars, are you perhaps a novelist ? you're really like type much huh ?
you should be happy cus i read half of it ... jk hahaha

first let me make clarification, when i say all server mean all server from english server S1-S17.
when we talking about booster,im sure every server have it, not only server 17, server 16 not exception.
look at their 2v2 rank, some rank not match with their player profiles.
i never say S17 full of booster, its just some person with many alts. who know how many.., i not gonna count it.
they can boost all the day cus circumstance very good for it. S17 lack of active players.
so when we get merge, its more harder for them to boost.

i dont get it when you say S16 as sacrifice for S17, S16 older than S17, ofc their player base stronger too. we never get gsd with full 32 teams. so i think this merge will give us more fun gsd. so its win-win situation.

i dont agree when you say S17 community are corrupt and volatile. are you sure the booster/cheater not come from other server and migrate to S17 cus its more easy to boosting ? :)
I'm basing my comments directly off of your anecdotes, where you point out specific people, and make a specific contrast between S17 and S16, portraying one server as definitively worse than the other. Looking at it from the perspective of S16 and going by your anecdotes, why would I want to have people from S17 join S16?

Your argument stems from this position of a merge being "more fun". There's no way that you don't see how this is not a sound argument. You don't propose project actions based on "more fun". You avoided addressing the stated problems related to the merge, even at times denied that there would be any problems. We haven't seen you address the issues related to the technical considerations (as brought up by Schlachtenhorn), we haven't seen any proposals for how the merge would proceed, how the S16 players would be compensated for taking on the burden of S17. How do you expect the mods to take you seriously if you can't even address their issues? We can't even pretend that the mod staff didn't address the topic because they did, and there's public record of it.

Now instead of "S17 is a Paradise for Boosters and Cheaters", you've changed tack to "Some person with many alts, I don't really know who or how many, but they boost all the day". This has to be a case where your wording undermines your intentions, because this shift actually makes the case of a S16/S17 merge even more difficult to back. By making your statement more ambiguous but still centered around the same fundamental problem, you aren't making S17 look any better. You made one attempt to address how this was supposed to benefit S16, but the rest of your argument effectively demonstrates why merging S16 with any other server would be more beneficial than a S16/S17 merge. The rest of your statement only confirms again why S17 should not be allowed to contaminate other servers - worsened by your own statement suggesting that you don't even know how bad the problem is.


Yet again, the biggest condemnation for S17 comes from your own assertions: "Are you sure the booster/cheater not come from other server and migrate to S17 cus its more easy to boosting?". So far it's been your anecdotes that have been focused on game abuse. Gunny's arguments came from people avoiding him in PvP, Sophiya's statements addressed that PvP was mostly centered around lower level players and older players had left. You chose to center your argument around game abuse, and even as you reframe your argument, you still end up portraying S17 as a hotzone for game abuse. (That's not even tackling how flawed the idea of "more population = harder to boost" is. We only need to look to RoM as the prime example of how regardless of population, people would find a way to game the PvP system for points. As long as points are on the line, people will find loopholes to exploit. Boosting isn't a population issue, it's a mindset, enforcement, and management issue.)

If we hold your words as true, then from the perspective of any other server (not just S16), there is zero reason to merge with S17. Let S17 stay isolated, have it be the containment server for these people as you yourself suggested, tell newcomers who want to play "legitimately" to start on S16 or other servers instead.


By now I really have to wonder whether you sincerely wanted a merge at all, or if you simply saw this as an opportunity to vent your own frustrations. Coming into this, you had to have understood that when it comes to a merge, you needed to put together a case, with hard evidence demonstrating that it would be beneficial from a business perspective to proceed ahead with a merge. Again, how do you expect them to even consider your request if your argument boils down to "I want to have fun"? At this point, you have a better chance getting a merge by paying the devs money straight up than through these arguments around "fun".
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Saber

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Friday, September 13th 2019, 2:01am

well i see this problem as casual player perspective, i dont care much about business view. that why i use word "fun".
everything i say is what i feels when play this game.

Btw you still not answer this queastion, are you novelist ? hahaha

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  • "Gunny_Walker" is male

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Friday, September 13th 2019, 3:19am

ARS - im just that strong that after 2- 3 games at most 95.99% of the players don't even want to bother me unless they are the top 1-2% of S17 that has been here so long it doesn't matter any more. so yes I would like a merger cross server at least. we don't need to merge locally cause i like winning FZ with no issue and basic level bs...

Whats the purpose of having local wins and cross server wins if they'll not utilize it?

S16 if what 3-5 years old? S17 is going on 3. but yet still no cross server merge between any of the servers - they shammed s16 out of the complete merge for stupid business reasons.

Any how I would still like a cross server merge either between s1.17 or atleast s16 -s17

PS. I run 1 acct only and thats it.

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Saturday, September 14th 2019, 4:42am

ARS - im just that strong that after 2- 3 games at most 95.99% of the players don't even want to bother me unless they are the top 1-2% of S17 that has been here so long it doesn't matter any more. so yes I would like a merger cross server at least. we don't need to merge locally cause i like winning FZ with no issue and basic level bs...

Whats the purpose of having local wins and cross server wins if they'll not utilize it?

S16 if what 3-5 years old? S17 is going on 3. but yet still no cross server merge between any of the servers - they shammed s16 out of the complete merge for stupid business reasons.

Any how I would still like a cross server merge either between s1.17 or atleast s16 -s17

PS. I run 1 acct only and thats it.
They're a company. Their first priority is to ensure that the business is stable and profitable. If the business can't be sustained, then everything else is irrelevant. It's fine if you don't understand or see any necessity behind having a "stable" business operation, but that doesn't mean the necessity doesn't exist, nor does it mean that their course of action is inherently stupid. This is what they do to put food on their table. They have drawn the line in the sand here - in their opinion, your request actively damages their revenue margins. You can deny them this, claim that they don't know what they're talking about, but then they can say the same for you. It's a two way street here.

While it has become apparent why you're not asking for an account transfer and instead opted for a partial server merge, but your reasoning doesn't really align with S16's interests, especially given how you're trying to avoid competition in things other than PvP. We're now back at the same fundamental problem if we take your mindset and apply it to them: S16 has no real reason to agree to a merge. Right now they get both Cross Server and Local Server rewards, in addition to PvE rewards without competition, and as Saber has brought up, their PvP scene doesn't have the same problems as S17. Your proposal for a merge means that they now have to take a cut on Cross Server rewards, competing against people who can get away with breaking the rules (If we continue to hold Saber's assertions as true), and effectively they get nothing in return except the right to claim that their server now has "more people".


It shouldn't be hard to see how this is not a beneficial outcome. We can't make a case that this benefits S16 because it "revitalizes their server", because a selective server merge makes S17 competition, and let's be honest, having more people around doesn't have a linear correlation to server "vitality", as S17 demonstrates. There are definitely people, and people are definitely playing - but the bottom line is that the people playing aren't the ones you want to be playing. If the only point of interaction is competition then at the end of the day people are going to look for ways to eliminate the competition, just like you, except you drew the line at "I want PvP competition but not PvE competition". Whether or not you engage in rule violations doesn't change that fact.


Furthermore, if the staff's concerns about population are credible (And let's be fair enough to admit that unless you're a site data and traffic analyst, the staff probably have the hard data relevant to this issue, given that it is their primary revenue stream), then a merge creates a second problem while the first one remains unfixed. We can put up our hands and say "That's their problem not mine", but then we shouldn't be surprised why they don't entertain the idea of a merge.


I'm pretty sure someone of your veterancy should realize that neither the age nor the availability of a function determines whether the function will be implemented. We cannot argue that other servers have more robust PvP/PvE rewards, that they have more expansive card/gold/general UI functions, all of these things are in the game data - whether they're used or not is up to the devs. When the data packages on RoM were released it was confirmed that a sizeable portion of the assets were never used, but this isn't a scam. Just because a function exists does not mean that anyone is being scammed - and it's important to make this distinction because this is how F2P games operate, especially gacha/loot box games like this one. There are plenty of loot box game scams, not utilizing a game function is not one of them - especially when people aren't being extorted over it. If we whimsically label things as scams just because we don't agree with them, then we're going to end up being seen as not worth the time of day.

If you sincerely believe that S16 was wronged and they deserved a complete merge with the S1-S15, then don't frame your argument around S16/S17 merge because you're not having the fun you want. Even if we weren't negotiating with a company, your way of framing the request comes off as disingenuous, because you're willing to victimize S16, but rather than giving them what was promised your proposed solution comes at their expense. If you could find an established agreement on the S16/S17 merge we might actually have a viable case to put forward - but continuing to argue along the tack of "fun" is going to turn this into a circlejerk.


And there are lots of things to circlejerk about when it comes to this game. We can spend months talking about how KaL is behind in terms of server features when compared to RoM/Chinese RoM/Japanese RoM. We can rail on how crappy the PvP system is and how its design dependencies make it unsustainable in the long term. We can pretend that the English community isn't steadily dwindling (how the overall population isn't steadily dwindling), and bemoan how we have no representation. We could even go on about how this game has fundamental engine problems that should have been fixed but aren't. All of these points wouldn't be any different from this general merge request: you might not find some of these "issues" to be noteworthy, but in the eyes of a company "user frustration" is the same regardless of expression.


If we don't want this to come off as an echo chamber and we are in fact serious about requesting a merge, then we should at least recognize that negotiating with a company needs to be done in a language that they understand and appreciate.
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